The Lost Patch

With all the buzz about patch 3.10 we, well I, sorta forgot all about the lil patch in between .08 and .1… oopsie

So far the only priest change listed is the long hoped for time increase to Inner Fire (30 min duration – up from 10!)

In 3.09 Rogues have quite a few changes though…

HFB – damage increasing from 3% to 5% per stack (guess we know why it jumps to 15% in a single stack in 3.10 now don’t we?)

Mind Numbing Poison changed from 60% reduced cast time to 30%. (meh… who cares?)

Mutilate damage bonus on poisoned target going down from 50% to 20% (my priest thanks you blizzard… now I may have a fighting chance once the all too long stun sequence is complete – hey at least I can get a heal off or something)

Slice and Dice – increased attack speed up from 30% to 40%. (This is a good across the board change for rogues that should help us struggle a little less on recount)

The Numbers Behind My DP Post

For anyone interested in the math behind my last post… here it is.

I’m working on getting my spreadsheets up on my guild site… I don’t know how to do it, but I’ve sent a PM to the guy who does so he can walk me through it. Since I don’t have that info, I’ll show my math here using both your AP and mine. For simplicity’s sake I’m going to assume we are both hit capped for poisons (315 Hit Rating + 5/5 Precision). I’ll use my base weapon speed, modified only by SnD. I will account for poison applications using white attacks only again for simplicity.

AP – 2168 and 3527
Weapon Speed
MH – base 2.6 modified – 2.08
OH – base 1.5 modified – 1.20

Wound Poison – [231+(.04*AP)]
Instant Poison – [300+(.1*AP)]
Deadly Poison – [296+(.08*SP)]

Wound Poison Damage    
(231+(.04*2168)) = 317.72 per hit  
231+(.04*3527)= 372.08 per hit  
Instant Poison
(300+(.1*2168)) = 516.80 per hit  
300+(.1*3527) = 652.70 per hit  
Deadly Poison (at five stacks)    

(296+(.08*2168))*5 = 2,347.20 over 12s 586.80 per tick 195.60 DPS
(296+(.08*3527))*5 = 2,890.80 over 12s 722.70 per tick 240.90 DPS

Now that we have the basic numbers we need to do a combat simulation.

If my MH speed is 2.08, it will hit (60/2.08 ) times per min. that works out to 28.85 hits per minute. We’ll say 28 for ease. My off hand, using the same rules, would hit 50 times per minute. Let’s look at a three-minute combat period and assume no poison talents (for now).

In three minutes my MH will hit 84 times (28*3) and my OH will hit 150 times. Now, we’re hit capped for poisons… but we still have a 12.4% chance to miss with our auto attacks on a boss mob. So our swings landed will be (100-12.4)*84 = 73.58 rounded down to 73 and our OH swings landed will be (100-12.4)*150 = 131.4 rounded down to 131.

We don’t really need the hit data for DP because once we get five stacks they don’t fall off unless we stop DPS for some reason.

So if fives stacks of Deadly Poison will do 2347.2 damage over 12 seconds (586.80 per tick), using your AP, then its DPS is 195.60; for my AP it is 2890.80 total over 12 seconds (722.70), and 240.90 DPS.

Now let’s look at IP and WP

If MH swings landed is 73, then 36.50 would apply wound poison and 14.60 will apply instant poison. OH would be 65.50 (WP) and 26.20 (IP).

So here is the total damage output of each poison and the DPS (total damage/combat length in seconds)

Your WP Damage on MH – 36 * 317.72 = 11,437.92 or 63.54 DPS
My WP Damage on MH – 36 * 372.08 = 13,394.88 or 74.41 DPS

Your WP Damage on OH – 65 * 317.72 = 20,651.80 or 114.73 DPS
My WP Damage on OH – 65 * 372.08 = 24,185.20 or 134.36 DPS

Your IP Damage on MH – 14 * 516.80 = 7,235.20 or 40.19 DPS
My IP Damage on MH – 14 * 652.70 = 9,137.80 or 50.76 DPS

Your IP Damage on OH – 26 * 516.80 = 13,436.80 or 74.64 DPS
My IP Damage on OH – 26 * 652.70 = 16,970.20 or 94.27 DPS

Wound poison is the winner and by a long shot… but wait! Lets factor in 5/5 Improved Poisons.

Instant Poison now hits 30% of the time. So, out of 73 MH swings landed 21.90 of them will apply IP; for 131 OH swings landed will apply IP 39.30 times. Now we find our new IP damage.

Your IP Damage on MH – 21 * 516.80 = 10,852.80 or 60.29 DPS
My IP Damage on MH – 21 * 652.70 = 13,706.70 or 76.14 DPS

Your IP Damage on OH – 39 * 516.80 = 20,155.20 or 111.97 DPS
My IP Damage on OH – 39 * 652.70 = 25,455.30 or 141.41 DPS

Now WP is still a winner for you, but IP is stronger for me. So, where is that threshold? 2,550 AP (I found that with the spreadsheet I made… on paper it doesn’t come out exact unless you carry lots of decimal places through each calculation)

Why Deadly Poison is Still on Top

I read a post about poisons earlier this week. It was a pretty good write up, in that it got me thinking about the poisons I use robotically. Unfortunately after some hard thinking and one spreadsheet, I’ve found the main assumption of the article to be mostly incorrect.


The article asserts that WP is better than DP and IP because it has a 50% application chance; where as DP and IP only have a 30% and 20% chance respectively. Sounds about right yes? Disregarding the poison talents, and using the author’s AP figure, he is technically right about WP v IP, but still wrong about WP v DP. Let’s take a look at why.


Deadly Poison puts a DoT on your target that stacks up to five times. Once you have five stacks on your target, so long as you reapply – even once – before the 12 second duration is up, it will never stop ticking at 5 stacks.


At five stacks, with the rogueland author’s AP figure, (not including hit rate, haste rate or any talents) DP will do 195.60 DPS (main or off hand); wound poison comes in at a paltry 38.80 on the MH and 67.26 on the OH. The gap between them widens with more AP.


I think the author made his mistake in the way he did his math. The standard calculation of [296+.08*AP] for DP w/30% application and [231+*.04*AP] for WP with 50% application hold’s true when you don’t take into account that DP stacks five times or that once your DP builds up five stacks you almost never loose the DP DoT on your target.


It’s also better to measure poisons over a given time period, including any applicable talents (i.e. poison talents and precision), buffs/skills (i.e. blade flurry and Slice and Dice) and gear stats (i.e. haste and hit ratings). Hence why the poison spreadsheet was born!


The author was mostly right about WP being better than IP though. If you don’t have the Improved Poisons talent, IP will never out damage WP (I went all the way up to 5 million AP on my spreadsheet and IP never got closer than within 35 DPS of WP when applied on the off hand). However, if you do have 5/5 Improved Poisons at 2,550 AP WP and IP will do equal DPS; anything over that AP amount brings IP out on top of WP.


So, while I’ll keep my DP on my MH I will switch to WP on my OH because I don’t have Improved Poisons, and probably never will.


Thanks to the original poison blogger (don’t want to offend you by giving out your name); you just helped me up my DPS by 51.21!!


When I get home I will make my poison spreadsheet available on FileFront so that tinker with it for themselves.


Also of note, generally you don’t want to use DP on both your MH and OH as that doesn’t increase it’s DPS – just it’s application speed. However, there are certain instances when you would double up on it… but that’s up to you to discover.